Monday, November 26, 2012

25 vs 10man

We love 25 player raiding. We also love 10 player raiding. We have people on the team that do both, depending on who they are. We aren't really satisfied with the state of 25 player raiding right now. Our goal when we made the raid changes at the start of Cataclysm that unified the 10 and 25 player lockouts was to let players choose the raid size that they preferred and make it a fair choice. 
At the time, we were responding to feedback from many players who preferred 10 player raiding and felt pressured to do 25s because they offered such better loot. The reality, something we failed to properly account for, is the logistical burdens of maintaining a 25 player roster. Those burdens are borne almost exclusively by the officers, raid leaders, and guild leaders of those groups. Those pressures are such that it tends to cause those groups to splinter into 10s. Before there was the carrot of 25s give you the best loot in the game, which was enough to get guilds to push through those stresses by recruiting more or making it work. 
Now it is easy to say, well, we only have 21 people on at raid time, let's just do 10 mans instead of cancelling the raid. Then you go down the road to transitioning to a 10 player guild. It isn't a reflection of what our players want, but what is simplest for the guild leadership. We are looking at trying to better incentivize 25s, recognizing that for it to be a fair choice, there needs to be something to compensate for that additional logistical burden.
A blue poster posted this a couple of days ago. I picked it up from MMO-Champion from this post, and I immediately saved it as a draft. Knowing that it was something I wanted to speak my mind about when I would have the time.

Overall this statement tells me that there will be a higher loot level again at some point for 25s. Especially with tests going on already with 10s and 25s being separate lockouts again.

If the burden is completely on the raidleader/officers/guildleaders, and those people are done with the catherding, what is the problem of them turning to do 10s instead of 25s?

If the general raider is not willing to step up to do the extra work, why should they be the ones rewarded? Attendance bonus?

"There needs to be something to compensate for logistical burden."
I disagree. Obviously people would prefer not to do this. 

Obviously people prefer to do 10s. Because there is currently nothing holding them from 25s. 

Yet, they don't.

Why do they need to be pushed into doing the 25s anyways? Why is it so important that the 25s are more popular than they are now? It feels like these people need to be bribed into doing something they would prefer not to do.

If I would not get paid for my job, I would not work either. So does this mean that I prefer working over doing something else? No. If given a choice and having everything even I would much prefer to do only the things I want to do, and not go to work. And I like my job, but there are still quite a few things I would like doing better.

So are the 25s supposed to be like work? Are players supposed to be pushed into 25s? But if they are obviously not fun enough without the extra incentive of 'salary' why would Blizzard want to push people in that direction?

To me it seems that currently people can decide to do 25s if they prefer that size. It seems to me that the fact that so many 25s have fallen apart is proof that the leadership prefers 10s over 25s. And to be honest, it's also proof that the players prefer 10s. Because if they would be so hung up on doing 25s, why do they not put in the extra time and energy to get that done?

Frankly, if you're a player who wants this or that, but is not willing to put the energy in to get that going or at the very least help the leadership to get that going. Then you have not much to want. You have to be happy with what the people who are willing to step up get done, and be happy that you can tag along.

If anything at all does happen, the leadership should be appreciated, not the whole raid. If you want the leaders in World of Warcraft to step up and do more, reward them. Not the whole 25 man, just because it is a 25man.

How about just giving the raid 1 item per boss kill? 10s and 25s. An item that the raid can reward to the players they feel have deserved it most. That the raid can give back to their leadership or whomever stepped up.

An item that does not effect the effectiveness of raiding mind you. Or maybe only after a long time of saving up. So having to save up say 20 of this or that item will get you the extra special reward.

Or maybe Blizz should introduce 20mans? 2 times 10 after all. If guilds have to transfer back from 10 to 25 that means 3 groups of 10, with 5 people left by the wayside.

In the end I don't know how Blizzard will get what they want, I know even less why on earth they want it. I do know that in the end the players won't be happy with it anyways.

Current WoW Mood:


  1. "How about just giving the raid 1 item per boss kill? 10s and 25s. An item that the raid can reward to the players they feel have deserved it most. That the raid can give back to their leadership or whomever stepped up."

    This is by far and away the best idea I've seen on how to make 25-man raiding more popular. Even though I'm not raiding anymore, I would be thrilled to see Blizzard implement something along these lines.

  2. Though about this today when I read your post. I am betting that the 25 man loot will be 4 ilevels higher, so a 10 man loot item will be on item upgrade less. Probably one of the main reasons that they will be implementing this feature

  3. Yeah, their whole point is that 25mans should be more attractive because of the loot. But that for me is the wrong type of incentive. If they're not attractive enough without loot they should deal with that first.

  4. I agree that an ilvl change is not the solution, but I also think that a large part of the solution is separate lockouts. If I could do a 10 man on my own time, and then do my 25 man run during the normal time, then there would be more incentive to do 25 man beause it is an extra chance at loot. Then, the incentive for a person to do a 25 man, would be a second chance at the week's loot. In the same way, 10's guild would have incentive to do 25 to get their loot. This would make both raids attractive with "no extra incentive" And for the hardcores who feel it is just another thing to do, they are right. If you choose to be hardcore, you have to do more, but if you choose to do casual, you can pick the one you want. This would help pugs become popular again, and elminate the need for lfr, because let's be honest, lfr is just their solution to the death of pugs at the beginning of cata.

  5. As far as incentive to do more..I'm not sure how much time most players have to do more. Dailies and other preparations ask a lot of time as it is.

    Then again you might be right, If there is no difference in loot, and you only have an extra chance for loot maybe the separate lockouts don't matter anymore and more people will feel inclined to do both. Maybe instead of dailies.

  6. I would like to see a system where you are rewarded for what you choose to do, the way they initially said mop would be. Some examples...why can't their be a scenario quartermaster and a dungeon quartermaster that can be unlocked when you do enough dungeons/scenarios that sell vp gear? Why can't charms be given for everything you do, so if I want an elder charm, I can do scenarios and still get them. In this model, if I choose to raid tens and 25's instead of doing dailies/scenarios/dungeons, I will be rewarded for what I want to do, not what Blizzard is guiding (cuz I know I don't have to do it) me to do. I love the idea of more options, just let me get the same rewards no matter what way I choose to play.