I like 10s better than 25s.
Reasons?
1. With 10 people you normally have a tighter group.
You know each other better, and you have to trust more on each other to do the job. In 25s you always get sub groups. This is not even my experience only, there has actually been research into this stuff and once a group gets to big, it will automatically split into smaller groups.
2. I find deafeating a boss with less people a lot more epic.
Think about it...I defeated all those big dragons and baddies with only 10 people, other groups needed 25. Bah weakos, had to pull in all their friends to be able to beat da boss.
3. With only 10 people there are less spell effects and I actually get to see more of the fight.
When I ran 25s I saw very little of the fight itself, the spell effects were overwhelming. I get this with LFR already and there you don't even have to focus much.
4. With 10 people each person has more accountability per person.
My experience in 25s is that more people can screw up. Actually, it's a fact that with 25s more people can screw up because you get 3 battle rezzes, and you even get more shaman logically that can self-rez.
5. Healing is a lot more intense in a 10man raid.
With 25 people you have 5 or 6 healers covering the raid. You have a certain role, you do your role and you don't often move away from doing your role. In 10s you sort of have to be able to do everything. In current content the only boss we have somewhat strict healing divide on is Garalon, and even there we have to keep an eye on all targets and not just on the ones our focus is on.
6. Organization is less intense in 10s.
What can I say I am a control freak...or wait, think positive...a natural leader. When I see a situation that needs organization and structure I tend to step forward and take over. Not in a mean way, but it naturally happens often. I know what I'm doing and when there is not a strong lead in a group I take over.
This leads to me always leading something in a 25. In our 10s people lead themselves. I do some organizational stuff, like copy/paste the calendar invite, but the rest gets itself arranged.
I do have to say that I am incredibly lucky with the base of our 10man group. We've had people rotating in and out, but the base group is strong and stable, for which I am very thankful.
There you go, six strong reasons for me to like 10s better. So the fact that Blizzard feels that 10s are worth less than 25s, is to me another disappointment to the game.
Bit of a shame...I was discussing with Thror yesterday. And while this whole loot change is on its own not even all that big of a deal. MoP has few things in it that not have a bad aftertaste for me.
I hated Cataclysm with a passion, but I play less during MoP...but hey, that might just be the next blog post.
I don't get where you see that Blizzard feels 10s are worth less than 25s.
ReplyDeleteRight now players (like myself) who enjoy 25s are frustrated that their guilds keep collapsing, that content doesn't feel properly tuned and that Blizzard has been ignoring them. All Blizzard is doing is trying to help those players keep a home in game.
If you prefer 10s, that's great, if I prefer 25s, that's great. And if Blizzard is going out of their way to ensure both types of raiding continue to be viable, that's a good thing.
If 25s are wanted enough, no extra reward should be needed than just the fact that they're there. 25s already get more loot, now they get an extra incentive.
ReplyDeleteIf something needs incentive over another thing, it means it is less desired. Blizzard clearly wants the 25s in the game, badly. Because they are willing to throw in that extra incentive.
I don't care so much about the extra incentive, I do care about Blizzard stepping on 10s while they try to defend their decisions.
I'm sorry that your 25man is collapsing, I really am. I know what it is like, we just lost one of our healers and replacing him will be tough. Even 10s have a struggle to keep the roster going.
But if overall 25s are so hard to keep up, in need of extra reward to stay alive, might it be that players in general consider them less attractive? Even with the extra loot?
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ReplyDeleteBy your logic and points if 5 man raiding existed it'd be even better. A more tight knit group, solo healing challenge, extreme personal responsibility, small group killing the big bad AND less spell effects
ReplyDeleteSame bosses, same loot (1 item per boss). Would be great yeah?
They'd be really popular, out numbering 10 mans 9 to 1 in no time. Hummm
Uhm, You may disagree Percy...you may prefer 25s, but don't step on my opinion just because it doesn't suit you.
ReplyDeleteBesides, those already exist. They're called challenge modes :) And you know what, I've been doing those without the reward of loot so far. No upgrades in sight either. Just because I like them.
Actually, you know what...feel free to step on my opinion, but at least come with valid arguments.
ReplyDeleteTell me, what is so special about 25s? Maybe you can make me understand. Because I like to think that 25s do not need more loot to be more interesting. But if that is really the only way to keep them in existence...
Sorry I got to this so late! I didn't think to check for a response until now.
DeleteSo for starters the theoretical existence of 5 man raiding modes is an incredibly valid argument. I know there are challenge modes (aka timed heroic mode ("heroic mode" IS normal mode)) that fit that description but those only reward cosmetic gear so they don't overlap with raids at all.
In theory if there WAS 5 man raiding that took place is MSV/HoF/ToES that requires 1 tank/1 healer/3 dps and rewarded one epic item per boss + 40 valor and shared the lockout with normal raiding how would you feel? Wouldn't it seem kinda small and cheap? Not as epic as raiding should be? Those rooms are so big.. for just 5 people..?
Basically thats how I feel about 10m raids as a dedicated 25m raider. I am TOTALLY biased of course because I love big raids. If 40 mans still existed I'd be in a 40m raiding guild no question about it.
I love the big raids because I love the extra effort involved to make things happen. You have the different teams and the different channels.. the tanks get along, the healers get along, the mages are always envious of the warlocks.. that kinda thing. You don't get as many dynamics in a 10m where everyone's role is so obvious. It is more difficult to lead, sure, and as the blue's have stated, guilds fall apart ALL the time. Even 10 mans. However it is a LOT easier for a new 10 man guild to form then a new 25 man to form. People get 10 members and figure thats all they need. So the 25s die over time. Just human nature I'm afraid =/
But anyways.. I just found it funny that all six of your points in the post would actually be quite favorable for a 5 man raid. So it'd be an interesting scenario if those became a real thing. Its essentially the equivalent of what 10s are to 25s now. I always find it kinda funny when you act all persecuted as a 10m raider when something favorable for 25mans is discussed by blizzard. 25 man raiders have had their nuts kicked consistently over the past 6 years!
Really just be thankful that thunderforged gear is all they are doing right now. Things might get much closer to wotlk style before this expac is done is blizzard is serious about keeping 25 man raids alive.